Thank you. Perhaps the best thing a man can do, in this area, is not to look for someone that he can safely talk to but to become someone that others can safely talk to. More so to actually encourage men around us to talk to us and for us to just listen while avoiding trying to fix stuff. I am thankful that I have friends in my life that i completely trust. They truly care about me. I think they feel the same about me. They know I love them and that I am there for them. It has added so much more meaning to my life. I am grateful
I had a similar experience during the pandemic. Most people were afraid to speak openly about what they were seeing. I openly questioned, refused to swallow what did not make sense to me, and found that this empowered others to break their silence. I love your advice Kenneth --- becoming the one whom others can safely confide breaks the silence and offers others an opportunity to practice and become that for others as well.
Thank you . Took me a long time to be figuring some of these important things out in life. I had dinner with a great friend last night. Was pretty much completely honest with him about some things. Hope you have a great day and thank you again
That's so great to hear, Kenneth -- and I agree with you, we need to learn how to practice this ourselves, so we can be there when others need to reach out. Really good food for thought.
I’m so sorry for what your family is going through. Your perspective here is so valuable. I’m also a child of the 70s/80s, “effortlessly stoic”, and generally upbeat. I hope I’m not being an unrealistic role model for my two sons…
Yes, we are a stoic close to bone male class. To be open and vulnerable is to expose yourself to ridicule and harassment. In a large part this general character trait must accept substantial blame for the hardness and cruelty of today’s world. Perhaps if women can avoid absorbing these traits, on their road to cultural and professional success, they could save us from ourselves.
One of your best essays, Terrell. I am sorry for your daughter and for your whole family. Really! Suicide takes it's toll and lasts for years. Sometimes one never quite gets over it. I say this as my first husband died by suicide, I just walked into the aftermath and have never gotten over it.
Yes, loneliness has taken over and stoicism. I "live" (guess you could call it that) with two trans people. Both were of the male gender before they transitioned. They call themselves female, yet, they exhibit all
the stoicism they were taught when they biological males. Just because they use hormones, have had laser and grow their hair long does not change the mindset. I pretty much stay to myself,THM is my only community, running is my only outlet where I can be myself.
I hope you can still continue to talk to your son and have him respond. Ten is a wonderful age. They start hiding after that be it behind the computer or on the phone. You note, Jefferson and his group had to actually sit down and write their thoughts. There was no quick response on a digital device. Change it? I have no suggestions. Only thing I can think of is to be open like you are. I have tried. I don't know if it did any good. The one I have is still influenced easily and afraid of me. (Odd?)
I've found the only way accomplish change is within oneself--yet we are talking generations. Perhaps there is no solution--only time.
Many of the members on THM had good suggestions. If they could be implemented, it would help. One has to start somewhere.
Snow showers here in Oregon. Not so cold as in other places, or so warm. The trees are in flower, as are the daffodils. There is hope! Take care! :)
One thing I forgot to say and it isn't always appreciated. . . humor goes a long way. . . makes people think! The folks of my generation and those before (grandparents and great grandparents that I had understood this well!) :)
It so does! Thank you, Nilima, always, for your thoughts and kind, encouraging words. I always love hearing your perspective -- and you're right, all we can do is try, right?
The role “influencers” play today is troublesome. Too many continue to preach that aggressive “manliness” is the way to go. I remember several years ago being laughed at when I ordered quiche for lunch because “real men” don’t eat quiche. My response was that real men eat anything they damned well please
Thank you so much for speaking to this. This is how we begin - by men having these conversations openly.
I've been deeply worried about the state of men for about 15 years now. I dated them, I married one (and it took a long time to find one who fit baby-making criteria) and now I am raising one - the same age as yours, in fact. I have long viewed women as being the luckier sex for the very reason that since the 70s, we have been permitted to have more roles and emotions, while those of men have shrunk. This is not how it is supposed to be. This is not 'equality of the sexes' and I feel trading one for the other has not left us better overall; a most unpopular opinion, I assure you!
As a woman, I do not feel it is appropriate for me to help you guys out much. I can only root for you and defend you when I see male-bashing, but all this work ahead is to collectively be determined amongst yourselves. If I am mistaken here, I'd love to know how I can help beyond the raising of my own son.
If it gives you solace, know that on the other side of the pond, outside of the Puritan English world, men greet one another with hugs, walk arm in arm, and even kiss one another on the cheek. Here in Spain I see men out on the weekends - of all ages, intermingling in the parks playing a game that looks like Boche Ball or just sitting on benches or cafes together catching up. I see men arm-in-arm with their aged mothers, slowly walking with them after a meal at the same speed we did with toddlers. Here I see men more free to express a wider range of emotions, and it soothes my heart that my son can swim in these waters now. There is a humanity that remains here that has been lost in the states, and to a lesser degree in the UK - generations and sexes and lives commingling on a much more personal level. The white expat men still struggle here with how they have learned to be at home, but I do hope that my son, at least, can be spared.
That's such a wonderful thing to hear about how the culture *hasn't* changed so much where you live, NNM. And, I love hearing your words and thoughts about this -- please don't feel like you can't chime in!
It's funny -- I notice the same kind of behavior you're describing in my son and his friends, especially during the years he's still been little -- boys will hold each other's hands, and show that wider range of emotions you're describing. It seems to be that once they enter their teenage years, they start "policing" one another in these areas, and it starts to get really hard -- they start to get the message that that isn't okay.
I too hope that my son can be spared! That's my work for the next 5-10 years, I think!
So sorry Terrell, and thank you for sharing. As for the old-fashioned writing and expressiveness -- I had no idea. I definitely have an image in my head of accomplished adventurers and thinkers, but the emotional intelligence and willingness to openly share... surprising and impressive
I know, right? I think it was when I first saw the Thomas Jefferson documentary all those years ago that I first noticed it -- the openness, the expressiveness with which people, men and women, communicated with one another back then. (And if you haven't, see "Hamilton" -- again, it's a play, but it's based on the way lives were really lived back then -- society permitted a degree of open emotionality and expressiveness that's completely foreign to us now.)
I am so very sorry for your daughter, her friend and his family. How tragic that a 19 year old felt he had no option but to end his life. Sadly, we are facing a similar situation. My daughter’s friend committed suicide last week - just 23 years old with her whole life ahead of her. So very sad that so many feel so isolated. My heart is broken for these young people.
Oh my goodness, Melissa -- I am so, so sorry to hear that! Wow... I hope your daughter is okay and getting some good support. This is just so sad, and alarmingly common. My heart just breaks for them.
I’m so deeply sorry for your daughter’s loss, and for her friend’s family. My heart breaks for everyone involved. And also, I’m so glad you wrote about a topic that, as a society, we don’t talk about nearly enough. 💔
Thank you so much, Maddie -- you are so kind. The good news is, I'm far from the only one talking about this -- there's a great group that a freelancer wrote for us here about a few years ago, called Run Talk Run (https://www.runtalkrun.com/). I think every effort like that helps!
Wow—what an amazing organization! This is an issue that’s touched my life, too, and I completely agree: any effort anyone makes has the opportunity to be life-saving. Love this.
Oh, Terrell. This was beautiful and so well framed. I really appreciate you taking the time to write about this topic, especially during a time when it needs to be broadcast loudly, clearly, and often — when literal lives are at a stake.
I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your daughter's friend. I was about that age when I experienced the death of someone my age for the first time, and it's almost unfathomable. The transitional time between childhood and adulthood and the changing expectations and concept of identity that follow is difficult to navigate as it is. When you feel so alone that you don't believe you have a support system or anyone that actually cares enough to help you through it... It's truly tragic.
I appreciate that you are encouraging and nurturing a different pathway for your young son. I want to do the same for mine. I'm curious if you've discussed his sister's loss with him at all. And, if so, how you approached the conversation?
Hugs to all ... And I hope you're getting some relief with your plantar fasciitis. I went for my first run in almost 2 months the other day. Not expecting to be getting lots of miles in yet, but it felt good to at least start up again!
Thank you, Rebecca. And yes, he's been asking us questions about it, so we're trying to respond as truthfully, but also as age-appropriately, as possible. We haven't shied away from the fact that it happened, but tried to deliver it as delicately as we can. Definitely a work in progress.
So glad to hear you're running again! I would really like to get a group together from here at THM to run here in Atlanta on the weekends -- hopefully soon. My plantars is feeling better, I've picked up some new shoes with inserts. But, I can't really walk around barefoot -- the pain comes right back when I do that!
I am so very sorry about the loss of your daughter’s friend, and you’re right….we are so different today than we used to be. A couple months ago. I read a book called What Made Maddy Run: The Secret Struggles and Tragic Death of an All-American Teen. It’s a true story about a young runner who planned her own suicide by jumping off ithe top of a parking garage. She even leaves gifts for her friends and family, perhaps as an apology. It’s so very sad. When I found it, I was drawn to it because of my own struggles with loneliness.
I know it’s especially hard for men. I do fundraising every year for a race called Movember to raise awareness for men’s mental health. The suicide rates for men is climbing, I would guess because of the very point you made: we don’t talk with each other with love the way we once did. Finding groups, such as this one, certainly helps me stay in touch with others that enjoy running and talking about it. In the real world, people look at me like I’m trying to recruit them…well maybe sometimes I am, but still…I’m always looking for a fellow runner. Perhaps for some men, they don’t have an outlet or anyone they feel they can talk with.
I will admit personally when I feel most lonely and sad, I retreat and don’t talk much. Last Sunday, for instance, I was having coffee alone at church in the designated “coffee with friends and family” area after mass. I do this every Sunday after church but for some reason this time it suddenly bothered me and I felt so incredibly lonely. I rushed to my Jeep and instantly began crying. The entire rest of the day, I was running errands but was incredibly introverted. I normally talk to everyone in stores and such and I don’t recall saying a word all day. It’s not a good place to be.
How do we fix this??? I don’t even know where to start but I always am drawn to the quietest person in the room and think they need someone to just say hi and acknowledge they’re there, so I do and they seem to cheer up. That always makes my day :)
Jennie, this is all so touching. I'm different (mostly) these days, but that definitely used to be me -- I was among the quietest people in the room, I never needed to talk to dozens of different people when I went to a party or an event. Whenever I could, I'd almost always park myself next to one person and talk with them the whole night!
I'm so sorry you felt the way you did last Sunday -- I can relate! There is something about our world -- I don't know if it's from living in cities and we're in our cars so much, but something keeps us apart, even in cities where millions of us live. I was reading something recently by another writer here about moving to Italy -- not b/c of the (obviously amazing) food or the beauty, but because their everyday social rituals bring people together more frequently and more naturally. Especially when I was in my twenties, I can remember it being a HUGE effort to try to get out and meet people.
So, to your question -- how do we fix this? (It's a GREAT question!) I wish I knew... there definitely are people making efforts to create new ways for people to get together. (I think of Robert "Raven" Kraft, who's hosted an 8-mile run every day on the beach in Miami since the 1970s! We did a book club on the book Laura Lee Huttenbach wrote about him a few years ago: https://www.thehalfmarathoner.com/p/book-club-kickoff-a-conversation)
If there could be a group like Raven's in every city, that would do a lot to help stitch back together the kinds of social ways of being that once facilitated people getting together, and staving off loneliness. It's just one thing, of course, but sometimes when I think about it, I think that's the big challenge of the next couple of decades -- how do we put back together what has been torn apart these past couple of decades?
In the meantime, another reader recently had a suggestion of putting together THM running groups in cities where readers are clustered together -- I am going to look into that! And in the meantime, keep in touch!
Thank you so much, Cathie! I do too. It's been a little over a year now; I imagine that for his family, the loss is still so fresh. Keeping them in my thoughts.
I'm aggressively against the stoicism movement, and was disappointed when it became a fad trend in the late 2010s. As a reluctant stoic, it's my least favorite of my personality traits, and I'm working to make it less a part of me. I find it a bit sad that the world is pushing men towards a character trait I'm actively fighting.
Thank you. Perhaps the best thing a man can do, in this area, is not to look for someone that he can safely talk to but to become someone that others can safely talk to. More so to actually encourage men around us to talk to us and for us to just listen while avoiding trying to fix stuff. I am thankful that I have friends in my life that i completely trust. They truly care about me. I think they feel the same about me. They know I love them and that I am there for them. It has added so much more meaning to my life. I am grateful
I had a similar experience during the pandemic. Most people were afraid to speak openly about what they were seeing. I openly questioned, refused to swallow what did not make sense to me, and found that this empowered others to break their silence. I love your advice Kenneth --- becoming the one whom others can safely confide breaks the silence and offers others an opportunity to practice and become that for others as well.
Thank you . Took me a long time to be figuring some of these important things out in life. I had dinner with a great friend last night. Was pretty much completely honest with him about some things. Hope you have a great day and thank you again
That's so great to hear, Kenneth -- and I agree with you, we need to learn how to practice this ourselves, so we can be there when others need to reach out. Really good food for thought.
I’m so sorry for what your family is going through. Your perspective here is so valuable. I’m also a child of the 70s/80s, “effortlessly stoic”, and generally upbeat. I hope I’m not being an unrealistic role model for my two sons…
Yes, we are a stoic close to bone male class. To be open and vulnerable is to expose yourself to ridicule and harassment. In a large part this general character trait must accept substantial blame for the hardness and cruelty of today’s world. Perhaps if women can avoid absorbing these traits, on their road to cultural and professional success, they could save us from ourselves.
I'm with you, Jerry -- and maybe we can learn something from them!
One of your best essays, Terrell. I am sorry for your daughter and for your whole family. Really! Suicide takes it's toll and lasts for years. Sometimes one never quite gets over it. I say this as my first husband died by suicide, I just walked into the aftermath and have never gotten over it.
Yes, loneliness has taken over and stoicism. I "live" (guess you could call it that) with two trans people. Both were of the male gender before they transitioned. They call themselves female, yet, they exhibit all
the stoicism they were taught when they biological males. Just because they use hormones, have had laser and grow their hair long does not change the mindset. I pretty much stay to myself,THM is my only community, running is my only outlet where I can be myself.
I hope you can still continue to talk to your son and have him respond. Ten is a wonderful age. They start hiding after that be it behind the computer or on the phone. You note, Jefferson and his group had to actually sit down and write their thoughts. There was no quick response on a digital device. Change it? I have no suggestions. Only thing I can think of is to be open like you are. I have tried. I don't know if it did any good. The one I have is still influenced easily and afraid of me. (Odd?)
I've found the only way accomplish change is within oneself--yet we are talking generations. Perhaps there is no solution--only time.
Many of the members on THM had good suggestions. If they could be implemented, it would help. One has to start somewhere.
Snow showers here in Oregon. Not so cold as in other places, or so warm. The trees are in flower, as are the daffodils. There is hope! Take care! :)
One thing I forgot to say and it isn't always appreciated. . . humor goes a long way. . . makes people think! The folks of my generation and those before (grandparents and great grandparents that I had understood this well!) :)
It so does! Thank you, Nilima, always, for your thoughts and kind, encouraging words. I always love hearing your perspective -- and you're right, all we can do is try, right?
The role “influencers” play today is troublesome. Too many continue to preach that aggressive “manliness” is the way to go. I remember several years ago being laughed at when I ordered quiche for lunch because “real men” don’t eat quiche. My response was that real men eat anything they damned well please
Thank you so much for speaking to this. This is how we begin - by men having these conversations openly.
I've been deeply worried about the state of men for about 15 years now. I dated them, I married one (and it took a long time to find one who fit baby-making criteria) and now I am raising one - the same age as yours, in fact. I have long viewed women as being the luckier sex for the very reason that since the 70s, we have been permitted to have more roles and emotions, while those of men have shrunk. This is not how it is supposed to be. This is not 'equality of the sexes' and I feel trading one for the other has not left us better overall; a most unpopular opinion, I assure you!
As a woman, I do not feel it is appropriate for me to help you guys out much. I can only root for you and defend you when I see male-bashing, but all this work ahead is to collectively be determined amongst yourselves. If I am mistaken here, I'd love to know how I can help beyond the raising of my own son.
If it gives you solace, know that on the other side of the pond, outside of the Puritan English world, men greet one another with hugs, walk arm in arm, and even kiss one another on the cheek. Here in Spain I see men out on the weekends - of all ages, intermingling in the parks playing a game that looks like Boche Ball or just sitting on benches or cafes together catching up. I see men arm-in-arm with their aged mothers, slowly walking with them after a meal at the same speed we did with toddlers. Here I see men more free to express a wider range of emotions, and it soothes my heart that my son can swim in these waters now. There is a humanity that remains here that has been lost in the states, and to a lesser degree in the UK - generations and sexes and lives commingling on a much more personal level. The white expat men still struggle here with how they have learned to be at home, but I do hope that my son, at least, can be spared.
That's such a wonderful thing to hear about how the culture *hasn't* changed so much where you live, NNM. And, I love hearing your words and thoughts about this -- please don't feel like you can't chime in!
It's funny -- I notice the same kind of behavior you're describing in my son and his friends, especially during the years he's still been little -- boys will hold each other's hands, and show that wider range of emotions you're describing. It seems to be that once they enter their teenage years, they start "policing" one another in these areas, and it starts to get really hard -- they start to get the message that that isn't okay.
I too hope that my son can be spared! That's my work for the next 5-10 years, I think!
So sorry Terrell, and thank you for sharing. As for the old-fashioned writing and expressiveness -- I had no idea. I definitely have an image in my head of accomplished adventurers and thinkers, but the emotional intelligence and willingness to openly share... surprising and impressive
I know, right? I think it was when I first saw the Thomas Jefferson documentary all those years ago that I first noticed it -- the openness, the expressiveness with which people, men and women, communicated with one another back then. (And if you haven't, see "Hamilton" -- again, it's a play, but it's based on the way lives were really lived back then -- society permitted a degree of open emotionality and expressiveness that's completely foreign to us now.)
Thank you for writing this, Terrell. And I’m glad your kids have you, to walk with them in this.
Thank you for that wonderful compliment, MaryAnn! You are so kind to say that.
I am so very sorry for your daughter, her friend and his family. How tragic that a 19 year old felt he had no option but to end his life. Sadly, we are facing a similar situation. My daughter’s friend committed suicide last week - just 23 years old with her whole life ahead of her. So very sad that so many feel so isolated. My heart is broken for these young people.
Oh my goodness, Melissa -- I am so, so sorry to hear that! Wow... I hope your daughter is okay and getting some good support. This is just so sad, and alarmingly common. My heart just breaks for them.
I’m so deeply sorry for your daughter’s loss, and for her friend’s family. My heart breaks for everyone involved. And also, I’m so glad you wrote about a topic that, as a society, we don’t talk about nearly enough. 💔
Thank you so much, Maddie -- you are so kind. The good news is, I'm far from the only one talking about this -- there's a great group that a freelancer wrote for us here about a few years ago, called Run Talk Run (https://www.runtalkrun.com/). I think every effort like that helps!
Wow—what an amazing organization! This is an issue that’s touched my life, too, and I completely agree: any effort anyone makes has the opportunity to be life-saving. Love this.
Oh, Terrell. This was beautiful and so well framed. I really appreciate you taking the time to write about this topic, especially during a time when it needs to be broadcast loudly, clearly, and often — when literal lives are at a stake.
I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your daughter's friend. I was about that age when I experienced the death of someone my age for the first time, and it's almost unfathomable. The transitional time between childhood and adulthood and the changing expectations and concept of identity that follow is difficult to navigate as it is. When you feel so alone that you don't believe you have a support system or anyone that actually cares enough to help you through it... It's truly tragic.
I appreciate that you are encouraging and nurturing a different pathway for your young son. I want to do the same for mine. I'm curious if you've discussed his sister's loss with him at all. And, if so, how you approached the conversation?
Hugs to all ... And I hope you're getting some relief with your plantar fasciitis. I went for my first run in almost 2 months the other day. Not expecting to be getting lots of miles in yet, but it felt good to at least start up again!
Thank you, Rebecca. And yes, he's been asking us questions about it, so we're trying to respond as truthfully, but also as age-appropriately, as possible. We haven't shied away from the fact that it happened, but tried to deliver it as delicately as we can. Definitely a work in progress.
So glad to hear you're running again! I would really like to get a group together from here at THM to run here in Atlanta on the weekends -- hopefully soon. My plantars is feeling better, I've picked up some new shoes with inserts. But, I can't really walk around barefoot -- the pain comes right back when I do that!
Lots of love to you and your daughter
Excellent thoughts. Thank you very much
I am so very sorry about the loss of your daughter’s friend, and you’re right….we are so different today than we used to be. A couple months ago. I read a book called What Made Maddy Run: The Secret Struggles and Tragic Death of an All-American Teen. It’s a true story about a young runner who planned her own suicide by jumping off ithe top of a parking garage. She even leaves gifts for her friends and family, perhaps as an apology. It’s so very sad. When I found it, I was drawn to it because of my own struggles with loneliness.
I know it’s especially hard for men. I do fundraising every year for a race called Movember to raise awareness for men’s mental health. The suicide rates for men is climbing, I would guess because of the very point you made: we don’t talk with each other with love the way we once did. Finding groups, such as this one, certainly helps me stay in touch with others that enjoy running and talking about it. In the real world, people look at me like I’m trying to recruit them…well maybe sometimes I am, but still…I’m always looking for a fellow runner. Perhaps for some men, they don’t have an outlet or anyone they feel they can talk with.
I will admit personally when I feel most lonely and sad, I retreat and don’t talk much. Last Sunday, for instance, I was having coffee alone at church in the designated “coffee with friends and family” area after mass. I do this every Sunday after church but for some reason this time it suddenly bothered me and I felt so incredibly lonely. I rushed to my Jeep and instantly began crying. The entire rest of the day, I was running errands but was incredibly introverted. I normally talk to everyone in stores and such and I don’t recall saying a word all day. It’s not a good place to be.
How do we fix this??? I don’t even know where to start but I always am drawn to the quietest person in the room and think they need someone to just say hi and acknowledge they’re there, so I do and they seem to cheer up. That always makes my day :)
Jennie, this is all so touching. I'm different (mostly) these days, but that definitely used to be me -- I was among the quietest people in the room, I never needed to talk to dozens of different people when I went to a party or an event. Whenever I could, I'd almost always park myself next to one person and talk with them the whole night!
I'm so sorry you felt the way you did last Sunday -- I can relate! There is something about our world -- I don't know if it's from living in cities and we're in our cars so much, but something keeps us apart, even in cities where millions of us live. I was reading something recently by another writer here about moving to Italy -- not b/c of the (obviously amazing) food or the beauty, but because their everyday social rituals bring people together more frequently and more naturally. Especially when I was in my twenties, I can remember it being a HUGE effort to try to get out and meet people.
So, to your question -- how do we fix this? (It's a GREAT question!) I wish I knew... there definitely are people making efforts to create new ways for people to get together. (I think of Robert "Raven" Kraft, who's hosted an 8-mile run every day on the beach in Miami since the 1970s! We did a book club on the book Laura Lee Huttenbach wrote about him a few years ago: https://www.thehalfmarathoner.com/p/book-club-kickoff-a-conversation)
If there could be a group like Raven's in every city, that would do a lot to help stitch back together the kinds of social ways of being that once facilitated people getting together, and staving off loneliness. It's just one thing, of course, but sometimes when I think about it, I think that's the big challenge of the next couple of decades -- how do we put back together what has been torn apart these past couple of decades?
In the meantime, another reader recently had a suggestion of putting together THM running groups in cities where readers are clustered together -- I am going to look into that! And in the meantime, keep in touch!
oh, I'm so sorry for the tragedy your daughter is trying to make sense of, and that you are trying to help her make sense of.
and I so grieve for that young man, his fear and isolation, the loss of life. and hope. And for his family.
thank you for sharing so deeply and with such vulnerability.
Thank you so much, Cathie! I do too. It's been a little over a year now; I imagine that for his family, the loss is still so fresh. Keeping them in my thoughts.
I'm aggressively against the stoicism movement, and was disappointed when it became a fad trend in the late 2010s. As a reluctant stoic, it's my least favorite of my personality traits, and I'm working to make it less a part of me. I find it a bit sad that the world is pushing men towards a character trait I'm actively fighting.
Agree on all counts, Kevin 👍